[cjm1972]

One of our forum members touched the interesting subject of "Innate Ability" or "Natural Born Talent", just wondered what others thoughts were on the subject.

My "Talent" is drawing, however, at the start of 2010 I had none...not a drop.
Obviously, I had drawn before that, half hearted efforts in school, but really was no better than anyone else.

My daughter bought me some pencils and paper when I was ill that summer. I had a go, and as suspected, I was'nt very good.

Now this is where it gets interesting.

Ability 1: The drive to better yourself.
This is where talent begins, without it, you will fall at the first hurdle.
My drive was great, made stronger by my daughters wish to see me improve. I trawled internet forums for help and surrounded myself with artistic talent that I could only dream of being comparable to.
I saw improvement in my work, and this spurred me on.

Ability 2: Patience.
As I improved, I realised that the more time I took, the better the outcome.
Now this is by no means a prerequisite for being an artist, but in my case, I was going for realism, and that meant patience.

Ability 3: An eye for detail/subtleties.
Realism requires detail, an appreciation for the subtle nuances of a subject, and this can only come with studies. Hours of looking at and trying to emulate everything I saw meant I started to see shapes better, angles became easier to judge.

Ability 4: Practice.
Being capable of dedicating every spare moment of the day to drawing seems like a luxury to many who just don't have the time to spare, and I understand that.
However, many people decide to spend their free time doing other activities, and this is where my borderline obsession with drawing really showed, I did nothing but drawing every spare moment I got. It's very easy to relax in front of the TV, or go for a drink with your buddies, but I just wanted to draw.

Now these are just some of the abilities that I believe combine to give me my "Talent", everyone of them learnt over time.

So maybe that's what talent is, the combination of learnt abilities that allow a person to excel in their chosen field.

This is my opinion as it stands, but I am willing to be corrected, as I am always learning.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Carl.

 

[SherylG]

I think that people are born with varying degrees of talent but even those with a lot of talent have to practice to be any good at it. Few folks are born with the ability to just pick up a pencil and draw realistically without any practice at all.

It improves with practice, regardless of your level of inborn talented ability and someone with very little "talent" can become good at it with enough practice. All artists have to practice. I think how good an artist someone becomes depends a lot on practice, and a little on talent.

Good for you for improving yourself and working for what you want!

 

[TerryCurley]

I know that a person can be born with talent but yes it needs to be nurtured. I have a granddaughter that began drawing at 4 and does way better than her 8 year old sister. No one has taught her, her brain is just wired that way. She could be great I'm sure of it, if that is what she decides to do.

I've never been able to draw well. I do try and do doodles a lot, but I'm not interested in making a full picture with pencils or pastel. I love painting, I love the feel of the brush and the smell of the paint. I started one year ago and sometimes I feel like I'm obsessed. So though I have limited talent I'm developing what I have and it is getting better, I can see it in my work. I have plans to take a course in the fall, in the mean time I'm listening to videos and doing things by trial and error. The people on this forum have helped me grow.

 

[cjm1972]

I think that people are born with varying degrees of talent but even those with a lot of talent have to practice to be any good at it.

I know that a person can be born with talent but yes it needs to be nurtured.

So are we ALL born with some degree of untapped talent?

 

[SherylG]

Maybe, who knows? I have met people who say they can't draw no matter how hard they try but perhaps they just haven't put in the time and effort it takes to develop what they have or studied to find out the basics of what they need to know to make it work.

I think almost everyone has talent in some area, maybe it's just not drawing. I have met folks who have succeeded in other disciplines with years of practice, that I would love to emulate but just don't have the time or effort to put into it at this time, i.e. black belt in karate, shooting and archery, stained glass. I would also like to get a degree in agriculture and become a master gardener at some point in my future. At 60 I can take free university courses and get that degree. Only 1.5 years until I can start!

I may do the master gardener thing before then, time permitting, but that would seriously cut into my painting time. It's relegated to mostly wintertime as it is. I already spend a lot of spare time making wine and soap, jams, jewellery for sale, all of which took time and practice to conquer. I have also put a lot of time and effort into studying and working at landscaping and gardening.

I am an artist, whether with landscape, paint or pencil. Everything else is just something I "do". I also help hubby with his computer business...teach seniors, build websites for people... in my "spare" time. Something else I have spent a great deal of time studying, took in college a few decades ago and continue to learn and work with. It helps that hubby is a programmer...I learned a lot by osmosis. He has a talent for it, is VERY good at it and it just seems to come easy and naturally to him...things people say about artist, not realizing how much practice and effort has gone into that over many, many years. The same thing is said by many about his cooking. He's an amazing chef but has spent years in the kitchen, that people don't see, developing that.

All of this in addition to working at a "job". The job I have now gives me the winters free.

 

[TerryCurley]

There are Savants that are able to do things that are way beyond what us "normal" people can do. No learning of the talent...just able to do it. Sometimes a brain injury will bring out an amazing savant like talent. This all goes against the logic that being really good has to be worked at and learned. Yes it does for us in the "normal" category, but there is much more to this theory than just learning and practice.

I have a metaphysical theory about all of this but I'm thinking it might be a little controversial to talk about at this forum. Do we want to go there?

 

[chanda95]

Talent. Everybody has a talent in something. There are those who can pick up a guitar and have a musical inclination from a very young age..the ones that can speak to you through their music. That's talent. Then there are ones that pick up a guitar to learn how to play but are not able to really reach people through their music. Skill is involved but not talent. Why do you think Jimi Hendrix and Chet Atkins reached the level of awe inspiring music they did? They had talent..they reached out to you..the guitar was a part of them..not just a tool they picked up to play.

Artists are the same. There are many who are basically born with a pencil in hand. I do not remember a time I was NOT drawing. My first vivid memory is getting caught after I crayoned my mom's bedroom wall..the whole wall as far as I could reach. I drew and drew and drew. What I drew then was rudamentary and certainly I wasn't a prodigy..but I was self taught. Nobody else in my family draws or paints..why did I take to it so much and why was I driven to draw ALL the time if I wasn't born with at least a smidge of talent? I wasn't exposed to art..it was just something I was driven to do.

I think maybe some people have been told or led themselves into believing they are not talented therefore they stop drawing..yet deep down they have always had that desire to draw but felt they couldn't. I have seen many people pick up a pencil and say "I can't draw" but with a little time and realization that they CAN actually do it..their desire for it improves as does their art. I have also seen people who were convinced they were artists and convinced they had talent who had absolutely none at all and no matter how hard they worked at it..their art never improved.

I used to be one of those who really wanted to do hyper realistic work. It wasn't until recently that I started looking at my work and thought..there has to be more to my art than that. Hyper realism will showcase my skills..but true art exudes a feeling that reaches out to the viewer. I would rather have a less than technically perfect drawing that people look at and identify with and have it resonate with them. To me that is true talent.

It's not the technical skills you put into the piece (whether it's a painting, a piece of music, a carving or a sculpture)..it's the emotions you bring out of it. Not everybody is able to do that. Just because you can do a technically perfect drawing doesn't mean you have talent..you have skill..talent is when you put every fiber of your being into your piece and are able to make that piece speak to those viewing or listening to it.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[cjm1972]

@Sheryl: WoW! you do soooo much, I'm surprised you have time to breath, I applaud you.

@Terry: You make a great point about Savant's, not sure how they do it, but I guess that can defiantly be called talent.
Your "Metaphysical Theory" intrigues me, and would love to know more, we are all adults here and believe we can have a controversial conversation.

@Chanda: Some great points too, I suspect I fall into the category of highly skilled, but not necessarily highly talented. If the power to emotionally effect someone with your art is what distinguishes the two, I will strive to achieve the latter, but feel it may be out of reach for myself without "Natural Born Talent".


Great posts guys, really making me think about my own work and maybe taking a slightly different direction.

Loving this forum.

 

[just]

Ok I found this thread.

Your reasoning was that talent was not inborn because you could not draw until you studied as an adult. I was drawing free handed at 3. The people who saw me drawing were amazed. I just naturally made the pencil make what I saw. Yes as I got older my work got more complicated. Practice had a lot to do with improvement. I took art in grade school and high school. I was not taught a thing that I had not discovered on my own. It was not until college that I learned about preparing canvas that I learned from a class.

My father was a checker champion. No one taught him how to play. He picked up on the game by watching it. At 6 no one in Muskogee Oklahoma could beat him. He learned chess at 18 by reading a book. His first game was in a state turnament, which he won. He held many state championships in both games. I had been good at chess. I had to do a lot of serious study to get a win from him. I was 31. He has studied a lot too when he was in his hay days.

My point is illustrated by my examples. We are born with a talent and it is what's done with it that makes it. Some people are not going to be able to play chess, football, guitar, sing, act, or other activities that requires a set of inborn abilities (talent) no matter how much they practice. Some will but practice makes them the tops.

 

[TerryCurley]

@Your "Metaphysical Theory" intrigues me, and would love to know more, we are all adults here and believe we can have a controversial conversation.

OK here are my beliefs on why and how people have innate talent and why their are prodigies and savants. I believe we are physical beings (no controversy there) with brains. These brains are like a smart TV, they are receivers yet they have some technical abilities in addition to what is received. I believe in a Universal All Knowing -- call it a Mind if you will -- or God -- Akashic Records -- or whatever you choose. I believe we are all connected to this Universal Mind and our brains are filtering systems filtering out the signals from this Universal Mind that is All Knowing. I mean really how would it look on the television if all signals were received on one station. Now some brains have filters that let more of a specific signal in than others, this allows the physical person to do more than those that don't have super filters. That's where prodigies and savants come from. In essence a God Given Gift. Those that have only minimal amounts filtering in from the Universe can compensate and enhance that knowledge with practice thereby altering their brain using neuroplasticity.

I'll take this whole theory a step further. I believe all living creatures are connected to this Universal Mind and the only reason they are not as smart as humans is because their brains are physically wired to filter out more of the Universal Mind than humans are.

Sure hope I haven't opened a can of worms here.

 

[cjm1972]

Interesting Theory Terry, does this indicate that humans are closer to god byway of this filter, and that savants/prodigies are an evolutionary advancement of sorts? Will out ultimate destiny be, as a species, to be all knowing ourselves?

Mind boggling stuff.

 

[TerryCurley]

I don't know what truly is...no one does...and if they say they do they are delusional. All I can tell you is what I personally believe to be true which may or ay not be as it truly is.

"does this indicate that humans are closer to god byway of this filter"
No one and nothing can be closer to God or the Universal Mind because in my belief UM is all there really is and us humans and everything else is a part of the Universal Mind's dream. So if we are all part how can anything or anyone be closer. I guess what you are saying is are we more like god. Well I'm sure my dogs think I'm god like.

"and that savants/prodigies are an evolutionary advancement of sorts? Will out ultimate destiny be, as a species, to be all knowing ourselves? "
I don't know....but interesting thoughts.

 

[SherylG]

Interesting conversation!

My talent was inborn but grew to be even better after practice and learning as an adult. All artist can improve with practice and learning. No one should be discouraged because someone else is better. It should make them want to work and study harder to achieve what that person has achieved. I was drawing as soon as I could hold a pencil, coloring on the walls, as well. It wasn't appreciated ... and drawing and colouring constantly. My daughter coloured on the walls too, although we made sure she had all the paper and pencils she wanted.

My grandmother, mother and daughter were/are all artist, also. So I can assume it's an inherited talent; however, my work has improved a lot with some learning (one year in high school and books self taught) and a lot of practice. It has continuously improved over the years. I have been drawing and painting for a few decades. I think some basics in learning can make a big difference in the finished product, even with talent. Understanding perspective and composition can make the difference between a good painting and a great one.

I noticed when my daughter was learning that even though her paintings were very good and her colours fabulous, the lines and objects could have been better if she had understood perspective a bit more. She had colours from a very early age! I also have to sometimes make corrections to my paintings in that area, after they are done, when the angles and lines are just not exactly right. Waves need geometry as well as perspective (learned that one the hard way and haven't painted many since, probably for that reason...).

If you are copying a scene that is already there exactly as is, perspective and composition are not a big deal; but I find that often a natural scene needs to be changed for better composition, so I use what I know of those things to make the scene better before painting it. That's where the learning and practice come in.

So I think this IMHO: to transfer what you see to paper in detail takes talent and advanced hand/eye coordination and fine motor skills. All inborn and genetic, but can be learned with time and a lot of hard work. To change the scene you are looking at and make it better, different or entirely redone with some understanding of what you are doing and why, takes some learning.

I also agree that talent will give you a painting that will sing, whereas learning alone will not and every once in a great while a savant is born that can draw a masterpiece at 5, like Mozart, but most of us are somewhere in between.

I believe talent is God given too and should not be hidden under a bushel.

 

[Susan Mulno]

*Crickets*

Seriously, yes we are all adults here and even though I absolutely disagree with you Terry, I have every respect for your right to say what you believe.

I definitely believe art is a lot of hard work done by someone with God given talent. But, no matter how much talent you are given, if your heart is not in it you will get nowhere. (That includes any and all talents, not just art.)

 

[TerryCurley]

*Crickets*

Seriously, yes we are all adults here and even though I absolutely disagree with you Terry, I have every respect for your right to say what you believe.

I definitely believe art is a lot of hard work done by someone with God given talent. But, no matter how much talent you are given, if your heart is not in it you will get nowhere. (That includes any and all talents, not just art.)

It's all cool. Thank Goodness we are in a country where we can disagree without fear.

 

[Eddieblz]

True talent is humility.
Those of us who are savants understand we need to be teachable.
Those who believe themselves prodigies need to understand they need to be teachable.

 

[Rathac]

So I think this IMHO: to transfer what you see to paper in detail takes talent and advanced hand/eye coordination and fine motor skills. All inborn and genetic, but can be learned with time and a lot of hard work.

Agreed. I think there are many natural factors which can apply to a variety of "talents," making any given talent appear to be natural if a person has a genetic predisposition for the aspects which contribute to it.

But on the whole, I agree with the OP: "talent" takes work, and I don't see a profound difference between "talent" and "skill," apart from how it is perceived by others.

Why do you think Jimi Hendrix and Chet Atkins reached the level of awe inspiring music they did? They had talent..they reached out to you..the guitar was a part of them..not just a tool they picked up to play.

Artists are the same. There are many who are basically born with a pencil in hand. I do not remember a time I was NOT drawing. My first vivid memory is getting caught after I crayoned my mom's bedroom wall..the whole wall as far as I could reach. I drew and drew and drew.

(Because lots of people were wasted at the time? :laugh: Just kidding!) Different things (or different images/art) reach out to different people in different ways. Personally, I feel nothing from The Starry Night, though it has "reached" a great many people in different ways. This isn't a definition of the artist's talent, which is purely subjective in nature. (How many people are "reached" by The Starry Night because they are told it's a painting that should reach them, either because of the feelings the image arouses or because of the technical proficiency?)

Being reached by a thing is also a learned trait, but it's also very subjective. I personally knew a very successful artist (in that he owned his own gallery), because I hung out in his gallery all the time and he kept trying to make a pitch. We talked a lot. I was very moved by his paintings, though he confided in me that he didn't feel a damn thing from some of them. Sometimes, he didn't even know what a painting was going to be until he got halfway through a charcoal sketch of random lines and shapes. Many of his paintings he did for the money, though that didn't make them any less appealing to me, nor should it. It wasn't about what he was feeling. It was about what I was feeling.

You drew and drew and drew. That means you had a lot of practice, and enjoyed it enough to keep working hard at it. Credit should be given where credit is due: you did that. Not some magical ability that was already there.

My point is that an artist reaches people because they learn to create what reaches people, or the image they create stirs up a memory within the extraordinarily complex human brain which conjures up an emotion which is regularly independent of what the artist had in mind. The art didn't do that. The person feeling the emotion did that, and the art was a trigger for the memories (which were experienced at some point).

I believe in a Universal All Knowing -- call it a Mind if you will -- or God -- Akashic Records -- or whatever you choose. I believe we are all connected to this Universal Mind...

It's true we are all connected, literally and metaphorically. Physically, and therefore mentally. Everything touches everything else, and ripples in the waters of the cosmos affect everything in tangible ways, whether we are able to perceive it or not.

Your idea about a Universal Mind is fascinating. It is as though we are all cells within a larger brain. The conglomeration of our individual consciousnesses working cohesively to give rise, as unbeknownst to us as our cells are aware of us, to a greater consciousness?

This would explain things like universal symbols. Does it also mean we are possibly less aware and independent (free willed?) than we perceive? Can sentience possibly be illusory? And if so, which of us (the individual, or the Universal Mind) is experiencing the illusion?

 

[TerryCurley]

WOW Rathac you are deep this morning. Usually I love getting into metaphysical discussions with open minded people like yourself, but I need to have about 3 cups of coffee first to wake my brain up.:vs_coffee:

People that just accept what they are told is true are very subject to being deceived. Exploring our mind, intuition and reality is part of being human and makes us different from all other animals (I think).:vs_blush:

 

[SuddenLife]

I think I mostly agree with what has been said a few times already; no matter what you're born with, you'll have to metaphorically get off your ass and work for it. Hard.
It's also why I have developed something of an aversion to the word talent in general. Because people overestimate it insanely. Non-artists, specifically.
I definitely believe people can be born with a certain affinity for something, but it's mostly that. An affinity, a slight disposition. Passion and perseverance are what take us the rest of the way there. You can have a strong feeling for color, or composition, but someone who's studied it for years, day and night, is still going to leave you behind in a trail of dust as they pass you by at full speed.

"Oh, you're so talented! I wish I had your talent."
No. Shh. No more words.
Have you seen my high school stuff? Or the stuff before that? What I did in primary school was absolute tossage. Of course it was. But I loved drawing and thus I kept going, was al-ways doing it.. And now I'm here. With a permanent lump on my middle finger and mild RSI. But I'm nowhere near giving up.

When someone claims I 'just have talent and they do not', I can't help but feel like it's a cop out. It's just too easy. Don't ignore years of hard work and countless embarrassing failures by saying it's all talent. Because that is a surefire way to get me riled up in no-time.

(Just to be clear, I'm not addressing any of you guys with that, but I also doubt anyone here feels spoken to right now. It's just that, now that we are on the subject, I really enjoy getting this little bit of frustration off my chest.)

I'm going to leave you guys with a nice bit of lyrics from Icon for Hire that I feel kind of fits the subject:
"I am not afraid to fall
You can watch me lose it all
I'll get it wrong, 'til I get it right
At least I'm making scenes in the meantime"