: Painting digitally a logical objective look - the future.


Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 06:50 PM
All of the following is just me ranting, and it's just my opinion and hopefully people who struggle with seeing digital painting as (real art) can get a better understanding from this...
The most important thing I want to portray is... digital art takes so much effort in learning - it's a whole new medium like switching from watercolor to Oil.
everything about this forum is my dream place to be
the people are amazing and I love the art I'm seeing from most
but there's 1 thing that peeves me and thats the fact my chosen art medium (digital) is still located under - Other art. (take a breath lol)
which means when ever I want to post a painting I have to go into a totally separate forum, now some of you may think it's not a big deal because it still gets listed as a new topic.
but I'll list a few reasons as to why it gets under my skin....

digital art is the future of art.
why? We must look at history and the history of tattooing is a perfect example for the type of thing I'm talking about, up to 1929 tatoo's were traditionally painted using sticks heated on clay, then came along the modern Gun tool.... at first people shy'd away from it, because it meant to tattoo with a gun means they had to learn a new tool/medium.... in order to express their art.

digital art deserves more respect than it's getting online (it's REAL art) some people flag it as an easy way to paint.
why? people who have the skill to paint good art using a tablet are NOT CHEATS - in fact they're to be admired.... admired for taking the time and giving so much effort in learning the new medium
anything I can paint with a tablet I can paint using Oils and watercolor, for for those who judge digital painting, can you paint what you paint with oils digitally?

So back to the actual painting, when I do an oil painting with my tablet the software I use forces me to use the oil meduim, so I have to use the same techniques as anyone else would painting with oils.
when I do a black & white drawing digitally the software forces me to use the very same pencil grades that the physical world does.

I'm frustrated, because I know ANY artist here given 6 weeks who works on ANY medium could master a tablet and produce better work and evolve their skills to levels they didn't even dream


so I wish that digital painting was moved to it's very own section under *Drawing* where I (& others like me) can post our art in what ever medium we are painting in.... instead of *other* because it's not yet understood
:vs_unimpressed: Sorry lol

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 09:24 PM
What I see as the problem Meli (and your speaking to the choir here since my main medium is Digital) is where do we put it? You say under drawing.. but i paint Digitally. Other times I draw digitally.

SO do we have a Digital drawing and a digital painting? How about other digital works? Like Photshopping a picture? I could go on.. but I think you understand. Being under "Other Art" is no problem to me. I'm not sure what you are saying "open another forum". I have all of the forums together on one page.. and Digital is on top (2nd down actually) making it easy to find.

I, personally, understand that digital isn't traditional. After all.. even Mixed Media is under Other Art. It doesn't mean in any way that it's not "understood" nor that it is 2nd class in anyone's eyes. It's just an easy way to categorize things (at least that's my understanding"

I hope Cricket VS will look at this as she would be the one to make the decision anyway.

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 09:34 PM
Understand painting art on skin wasn't traditional with sticks heated on Clay, before that it was scarification.
What i'm exactly suggesting is a new board underneath Drawing (as pic shows below) where people who use digital medium can post their art, as apposed to being listed along side " Misc Art" and " Art Supplies "
see?
( View pic below.. it's much more welcoming to people who paint digitally )

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 09:37 PM
No.. I don't see a picture below either :) But I understand what you are saying. You want an entire section.. Called Digital.. with sub catergories like Digital Drawing, Digital Painting, etc. Is this correct?

PS - We don't have a section for tats either.. LOL

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 09:41 PM
PS - We don't have a section for tats either.. LOL

Not yet :angel:

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 09:45 PM
hey I respect you as a Mod and as a digital painter, if you don't believe there should be a dedicated section then I'll conceded to my point and just shut up lol.. but you're only going to get more & more painters joining who use this format after all in just 4 years it will be 2020!!!!!!!
and we all know thats the year the Terminators travel back in time to destroy humanity lol

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 09:49 PM
It's not my call Meli.. as I said before.. I, too, use digital the most and I don't necessarily disagree with you. But I don't have the power to create forums.. only Cricket and Admin can do that. That's why I pointed it out in a previous post :)

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 09:52 PM
I know, and I knew you'd agree while I was writing the post :)

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 09:54 PM
And btw.. where did you get that kewl looking drop down? I don't have that.. I have the entire forum on a page.. With each topic listed. I think if you saw what I saw it wouldn't be as big a deal.. NOW I understand what you are looking for and why. I think there's an easy fix to that.. all they need to do is put a drop down Title that links directly to the Digital forum.

onizetsu666
03-26-2016, 09:54 PM
Yeah I get what you mean. Also there are apps like "Fresh Paint" that are the ultimate mix of traditional painting and digital.
This also reminds me of kinda what my mother said to me when I was little and I told her I wanted to be an artist, which her response was that it would not be a good idea because artists don't make much (at the time digital art did not really kick off and I was doing "fine art" so to say) and now that she can see my talents and how the market for graphic designers and other digital art areas are in much desire she is all for it and has encouraged me. So I can apply this to digital art itself, perhaps some people don't think it is in a right setting yet and once it becomes more stable everyone will accept it more.
As for the placement in the forums I don't find it a bother BUT I do understand the principal behind it so I do have to agree.

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 09:57 PM
Yes that sounds perfect!
Just below the button that says 'Drawing'
:wings: Brilliant!

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 10:06 PM
Yup.. I see the difference. You have the new skin. I keep the classic because it shows me every time someone posts a new post. If you look at the classic skin you will see what I see.. and why I was wondering what the difference was

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 10:10 PM
lets see your self portrait then?

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 10:13 PM
My self portrait? What's that got to do with a Digital category? ROTFLOL

Mel_Robertson
03-26-2016, 10:15 PM
oops I thought this was community chat
(still I'm always keen to see people how they see themselves) lol

Bushcraftonfire
03-26-2016, 10:34 PM
http://orig02.deviantart.net/79db/f/2013/049/0/4/profile_picture_by_bushcraftonfire-d5vf9jw.jpg

Just for you Meli.. BUT! I need to say.. I had only been drawing about 6 months when I did this.. It was one of my first works.. so it's horrible.. LOL!

I suppose I should do a new one.. maybe a digital.. would be fun

Mel_Robertson
03-27-2016, 08:39 AM
its very good for just six months

abt2k15
03-27-2016, 10:09 AM
l8 on topic but yeah i agree with meli and have to say was kind of offended too since people tend to dismiss digital art very quickly since its on the computer
the computer did all the work but its basically the same principals just there is so many more ways to shove and change pigments..
well and its called pixels instead of pigments but yeah you simulate traditional drawing but at almost no cost. you dont have
to buy paint and brushes and such for studies.

http://abt2k15.deviantart.com/art/Acryl-Ritt-nach-laramie-S-502030825

this was my 3rd acrylic painting ever and i did it w/o reference and how much knowledge can you have about the medium
with 3 paintings ever made? it turned out rather well and thats due to my experience with digital art. so at least for me personally
i know that digital and traditional art are related and not that far away. its really just the medium "pixel" is so much more flexible ^^

when i post traditional stuff on fb for example ppl would send likes like its a meme but when i post a digital artwork its just ok to them
since in ppls mind they see it like you just put a sticker on a foto and thats that.

Susan Mulno
03-27-2016, 10:21 AM
I appreciate digital painting a lot.

That being said, I think there is a bit of a stigma for digital artists out there because in the back of their minds people know that a photoshop image is beautiful but was done by the computer more or less. Many people do not realize that you can do original paintings and works this way.

You digital artists will help them see.....

Bushcraftonfire
03-27-2016, 12:19 PM
...in the back of their minds people know that a photoshop image is beautiful but was done by the computer more or less. Many people do not realize that you can do original paintings and works this way.




While I understand that's how people see it Susan.. the computer DOES NOT do all the work. Well.. yes.. you can get some programs that will extract lines and manipulate them for a desired effect. But when I paint digitally.. I am doing the work.. holding the pen.. moving my hand the way I want the pixels.. choosing the color. I believe that's how Meli works as well and why she is upset.

We aren't talking about photoshopping something with a preset. We are talking about creating something fresh on a digital processor. There is really NOTHING different than sketching with a pencil or pen.. or doing an oil painting (Yup.. the programs we use actually make the paint flow the way it does in life.. so you need to know how to use the paints, Palette knife, etc)

In fact, even photoshopping an image takes skill! It's not the computer that sees where the corrections need to be made (in fact.. the computer is really pretty poor at this compared to the human eye). It's not the computer that makes the changes needed.. it only makes it possible to make those changes.

Wow.. it sounds like I was being defensive there for a minute.. maybe I was.. LOL!

Susan Mulno
03-27-2016, 12:45 PM
While I understand that's how people see it Susan.. the computer DOES NOT do all the work. Well.. yes.. you can get some programs that will extract lines and manipulate them for a desired effect. But when I paint digitally.. I am doing the work.. holding the pen.. moving my hand the way I want the pixels.. choosing the color. I believe that's how Meli works as well and why she is upset.

We aren't talking about photoshopping something with a preset. We are talking about creating something fresh on a digital processor. There is really NOTHING different than sketching with a pencil or pen.. or doing an oil painting (Yup.. the programs we use actually make the paint flow the way it does in life.. so you need to know how to use the paints, Palette knife, etc)

In fact, even photoshopping an image takes skill! It's not the computer that sees where the corrections need to be made (in fact.. the computer is really pretty poor at this compared to the human eye). It's not the computer that makes the changes needed.. it only makes it possible to make those changes.

Wow.. it sounds like I was being defensive there for a minute.. maybe I was.. LOL!

Trust me, I know it is a lot of work. I am saying the common public doesn't recognize that. It is like when someone (who doesn't draw) finds out you are artistic and assumes you can paint a picture of their dog when they describe to you what it looks like.

dickhutchings
03-27-2016, 01:18 PM
The way I see it, digital art isn't what people want on their walls, sure some do but I think most prefer a real canvas with paint on it if they're going to be spending any real dough on it. I certainly understand that it's a real person/artist making the pictures but I guess I'm still with the general population when it comes down to buying art. Notice I said pictures, not paintings. Even if you are using paint like tools and everything feels like you're actually painting, it still is a picture, not a painting. A painting still requires paint.
Sorry to rain on your parade but that's my take on digital art. I appreciate it but I ain't buying it. That's the sad truth.

Bushcraftonfire
03-27-2016, 01:32 PM
Dick.. While I understand what you are saying.. there are a LOT of people who hang digital prints on their walls now a days. In fact, I bet that you can find something digital hanging somewhere in your house.. Prints are prints.. doesn't make a difference how they are produced..

BTW.. "Paint" (or rather ink) is used in every digital painting. It's really no different than me doing a pen and ink drawing. No.. it's not watercolor paint or oil paint (I have done some digital watercolors that when printed look identical to Giclees).. and no one is minimizing the need and desire for these.. but there is a place for digital too.. think that's all we're saying :)

As an aside.. there are MANY venues for digital (we all live pretty much online nowadays) for websites, Avatars, wallpaper, etc. Try putting an oil painting on your website :) It would have to be a "picture"

SuddenLife
03-27-2016, 02:23 PM
I don't really think that that is where the money is anyway, though. I also don't really get the feeling many digital artists aim to have their pieces on someone's wall, at least. A lot of it is, I think, more commercial. Which I don't think is bad by the way, as it's the industry I want to get into as well. The digital art people have in their homes is usually product design. Cards, playing cards, mugs, plates, posters, phone or laptop casing, that sort of thing (not that all this is exclusive to digital artists, mind you).
Aside from that, most digital art stays digital. It never leaves the web or at least the screen. Concept art and promotional art for games isn't meant to be printed on a canvas. The only places that'll be seen in printed form is in related magazines, discussing an upcoming game. An even bigger chunk of concept art never even leaves the company for which it was created. It can be super creative and interesting, but it's simply not meant to be put on display but to serve the bigger picture (aside from being posted on some sites and someone's portfolio perhaps), so that the 3D modelers can work off of it.

Animation and comic design are also fields in which digital art plays a fairly large role, as well as illustration. Those fields have plenty of traditional artists as well, and they can co-exist just fine, but what I'm saying is; digital art often just does not has the same endgame traditional art has, and that's okay. We're talking very different fields of art here.

I myself would not want a canvas with a print of a digital piece on it as well, though a deck of cards with concept art from my favorite games would be hella rad, if you ask me, or a mug or T-shirt with a neat design on it. Or a poster. Once I have enough room on my walls again, the maps I got with some of my games will get a nice place on the wall.


--
But back to the opening post.
I'm not sure I'm willing to call digital art the absolute future of art. It will certainly play a massive role, without a doubt, but I also don't think traditional stuff will be out of the picture anytime soon. As I said in reaction to Dick as well; the art spectrum is so very broad that it's hard to predict where it'll go eventually. People keep finding ways to combine the new and the old, or to even just re-invent the new. With the internet it doesn't matter what kind of art you're into; there's a community full of like minded people just a few mouse-clicks away, and as long as that's the case, there will be room for a lot of different strokes for different folks.
You can't really replicate the average digital piece in your sketchbook, but you can also hardly replicate an oil painting on screen. Sure, you can add a texture layer, but you'll always see the difference between what needs to look 'painty' and what really is a scanned painting. Each medium brings it's own unique qualities to the table.

Neither was I very offended to find the digital art section under other. I do think lumping all sorts of digital art together has the potential of making the board a little messy, but I don't think it's a very crowded board, so it's not really a problem (sub-boards could be concept art, pixel art, photomanipulation if anyone here is into that sort of thing, vector art, 3D art etc.)
If things get really crowded, it can always be subdivided, I think. Having too many boards right off the bat makes the forum so long.

However, I wholeheartedly consider digital art art. Which is completely subjective of course, but I'm not really losing sleep over that. For me, commercial art can still very much be art. It takes a lot of creativity to be able to create a whole new world, with unique, well-rounded characters, an interesting plot and stunning visuals, wether we're talking comics, animations or games.

As has been said before; like any other artform, it requires time and practise. When it comes to it's difficulty in mastering in comparison to other forms of art I can't really say where it stands, but I can assure people that even after quite a few years, I'm still learning.
Because just as with watercolours, oil paint or acrylics, you need to understand color, balance and all the other things that come into play. Often enough someone who wants to get better will just buy some fancy ass tablet and then get frustrated when he/she doesn't automatically draw better than when they had a cheaper model. The tech is only as good as you make it. My tablet was one of the cheaper ones, yet works like a charm. The idea that the computer does all the work is ignorant at best.
If you don't understand anatomy on paper, you won't understand it on your screen either. If you can't look critically at your own work on a canvas, trying it digitally won't yield any better results.
And that's just me talking about 2D. 3D art is a whole nother can of worms. It might seem overly technical to some at first, but 3D too has a lot of potential. And again if you don't know much about anatomy, or architecture or color, with 3D, too, you will fall flat on your face.
--

A few digital pieces that I personally really like:
https://epicturtles.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/73894_deusexhumanrevolution-localeconceptart-07.jpg
This is concept art for Deus Ex: Human Revolution. It's goal here is to set the mood, to let us feel what that will be like in the actual game. And it does a splendid job in that.

https://cdn0.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/845/180/large/iacocca-khen-helmgast-damarien-upload-2.jpg?1434410230
Commission someone did for a book cover. With the lighting, I think the artist does a neat job of guiding the viewer's eye through the image, both with the light of the setting sun, as well as the lights near the castle and the bridge.

https://cdn2.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/059/566/large/red_year_by_hieronymus7z-d7bcbs1.jpg?1399579184
I believe this is just a fan art piece someone made for the Elder Scrolls V Skyrim.

https://cdn1.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/001/889/373/large/strzyg-layer-12.jpg?1454313826
3D art. Very often forgotten and underrepresented in arguments like these, but significant all the same. Pixar does a neat job with it as well. I love this piece because it's nicely unconventional as far as characters go.

https://cdn0.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/066/732/large/Rain.jpg?1400156118
And this one, this one I absolutely adore. She has something. They want it. If she lets go of the grenade, she takes it with her. But as long as she holds that grenade, they won't shoot, because then she'll let go as well and the bag will still be destroyed. That one item that has so much destructive capabilities, is also the only thing that maybe, just maybe, could save her.

http://img12.deviantart.net/12db/i/2013/292/c/9/z0mbies__by_peter_ortiz-d6r3iqx.jpg
Again, a fair bit of storytelling going on here, lot of tension. But I really love the use of color as well. The green complements the creepy atmosphere.

http://img14.deviantart.net/b475/i/2011/325/b/b/don__t_die_by_audreydutroux-d4gvuep.jpg
Completely different style, but still neat. This would have worked very well with watercolours as well, though.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/b6/31/e6/b631e6b7db4522694746c8011a93293d.jpg
3D piece. Nice use of warm-cold and I can only admire the patience and determination this must've taken.

Bushcraftonfire
03-27-2016, 05:47 PM
Excellent treatise Inge.. well stated and very comprehensive!

Mel_Robertson
03-27-2016, 07:05 PM
SuddenLife great response as was everyones.
I'm working on a 3D gallery at the mo for my art but it's Anaglyph 3D hahaha Retro!!! :biggrin:

vv Contains mild nudity & requires 3D glasses vv
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/12801539_1539910066309118_5225797739770941503_n.jp g?oh=16b6f1bc878d6806ecaaaa6aa984be23&oe=5785D26F
this was an album cover.

SuddenLife
03-28-2016, 03:16 AM
Thanks guys!
And that looks nice!
I recently discovered a new 3D program that is advertised as being pretty revolutionary, so today I'm going to try out the alpha version (it's still in development). It should allow a lot more freedom according to the promo video and be more suitable for 2D artists.

Mel_Robertson
03-28-2016, 09:37 AM
Thanks guys!
And that looks nice!
I recently discovered a new 3D program that is advertised as being pretty revolutionary, so today I'm going to try out the alpha version (it's still in development). It should allow a lot more freedom according to the promo video and be more suitable for 2D artists.

i do hope you'll share what you create from it

Eddieblz
03-28-2016, 09:57 AM
I don't really think that that is where the money is anyway, though. I also don't really get the feeling many digital artists aim to have their pieces on someone's wall, at least. A lot of it is, I think, more commercial. .

Tru-Dat.
Sorry couldn't read the rest of it. (Not enough attention span any more.) :gerg:

SuddenLife
03-28-2016, 10:04 AM
Well, three sentences can be pretty exhausting, I'm told.


meli; will do!

Cricket
03-28-2016, 10:42 AM
And btw.. where did you get that kewl looking drop down? I don't have that.. I have the entire forum on a page.. With each topic listed. I think if you saw what I saw it wouldn't be as big a deal.. NOW I understand what you are looking for and why. I think there's an easy fix to that.. all they need to do is put a drop down Title that links directly to the Digital forum.

Bushcraftonfire, you should be able to see that drop down menu at the top of the community, it is based off the same order as the community.

33193


If enough members are interested in having Digital Art in its own section, I will make changes. I will hold off on more input from others.

abt2k15
03-28-2016, 11:08 AM
look at deez sekret hiddn forums haha

Bushcraftonfire
03-28-2016, 12:03 PM
Yes Cricket VS.. I figured that out once I saw her post.. It's only on that forum skin.. not on the classic (I don't think)

Eddieblz
03-29-2016, 11:48 PM
http://i1073.photobucket.com/albums/w400/Eddieblz/my%20art/th_smly%20tired21_zpshisokbbg.gif (http://s1073.photobucket.com/user/Eddieblz/media/my%20art/smly%20tired21_zpshisokbbg.gif.html)

Mel_Robertson
03-30-2016, 01:09 AM
the text is white - it's white

Eddieblz
03-30-2016, 06:45 AM
What would you put as sub forums in a digital forum?

SuddenLife
03-30-2016, 07:11 AM
(sub-boards could be concept art, pixel art, photomanipulation if anyone here is into that sort of thing, vector art, 3D art etc.)

-rolls away-

Mel_Robertson
03-30-2016, 09:17 AM
I'd say what SuddenLife's suggested but effeminately add "Drawing"

Susan Mulno
03-30-2016, 01:04 PM
I have a curiosity question, in digital art is there such a thing as one of a kind? I mean if I sell an original it is gone to me, can that be done with digital? or are you only able to sell a copy of your work?

abt2k15
03-30-2016, 02:41 PM
I have a curiosity question, in digital art is there such a thing as one of a kind? I mean if I sell an original it is gone to me, can that be done with digital? or are you only able to sell a copy of your work?

well you have the original source file where you can export to a data format better suited for print.
if its important to you that no one prints it out you can upload a smaller version of the original.
lets say just HD. it will be fine on displays but depending on where its printed itīll be blurry since you cannot scale up since you lost pixel data while shrinking.

SuddenLife
03-30-2016, 03:53 PM
I have a curiosity question, in digital art is there such a thing as one of a kind? I mean if I sell an original it is gone to me, can that be done with digital? or are you only able to sell a copy of your work?

Not sure about how this would work legally, but in essence it's always a copy you're selling, unless you were to manually delete the file once you sold it, though I don't think many people do that.

Now, on the other hand, as far as I know, usually a piece is only sold to one person (not talking about stock images and the like of course) so in that sense it does have the possibility to retain it's exclusiveness, though it'll still be different from a painting or statue.
If the buyer - or the artist if it's agreed upon that it can be used as a portfolio piece - puts the work up on the internet, in it's full size and resolution, then of course anyone can download it and do with it whatever they want as long as they don't get caught making money off of it, but that's why watermarks and lower resolutions can be a good idea; that way the artist has control over who will get the piece in the way it's intended to be.

As I said, I don't know the ins and outs of copyright law and what would protect a digital piece's exclusiveness and what wouldn't, but generally speaking a piece you buy - or buy the rights of, I suppose - is always going to be a copy of the artist's original file.

Mel_Robertson
03-31-2016, 11:07 AM
Legally the person who creates the digital original (or copies) holds the copyright on it in the exact same way any other artist does, theoretically no 1 should download or use the drawing without the permission of the artist & copyright extends for 70 years after the artists death, in all situations in every medium... oil/digital/watercolor/musical.
I think all copyright is useless unless you're a corporation or registered PLC company, I've never heard of an individual successfully taking anyone to court and winning a copyright battle.
(Edit - even if you sell someone a piece of your art they're not allowed to make a copy of it).

I'm a freak in my way of thinking on the copyright thing, I upload full res copies of all my art to my gallery and encourage anyone to download them and do what ever they like with them because they're not originals, what would make a piece of digital art an original is if I sign it and forward it to who ever commissioned it or bought it as an original.
at least thats how I've been doing it when I sell digital art in the past.
if I ever discover someone is having my art printed off and they're selling them for a profit, I think that would be great! it'd make me feel good and I'd take it as a compliment!
but if they were printing, then signing it as if they'd created it then I'd have an issue.

SuddenLife
03-31-2016, 03:32 PM
I usually just upload it at a reasonable size; fine for viewing only, but not much good when printing. I personally wouldn't see my stuff being printed behind my back as a compliment, but more as cheap way of making money. It could happen either way, of course, poor sods at Pixiv are often targeted, as a lot of them don't speak English very well, adding just another hurdle if they would want to do something about it, but yeah, it wouldn't make me feel good. Someone printing and selling your work without compensating you to me looks like someone not respecting your work enough to pay for it.

Funnily, I actually don't really care if someone tries to pass off my work as their own, at least on the web. That sort of thing never lasts anyway. My sentiment is something like 'go ahead, we'll speak again once someone tries to commission something, won't we'.

Susan Mulno
03-31-2016, 09:18 PM
Wow folks, a lot of great information here. Thank you!

How does it affect interest/price when there is no "one of a kind" factor?

If I sell one of my works that's it, there are no more. Even if I do another rendition of the same subject, it will be different. I learned when you sell an original for top dollar but then sell prints made from that original that you have effectively "ripped off" the person you sold the piece to.
How does that work with digital art?

The reason I am curious is I have considered trying my hand at digital art. I have made memes that include some artwork in them. Thinking of branching out.

Mel_Robertson
03-31-2016, 11:42 PM
How does it affect interest/price when there is no "one of a kind" factor?
I think that depends on your skill level, I've only been drawing digitally for 4 years before that I sold drawings in INK+lead (tattoo studios)
& paintings in watercolor for around 15 years (commissioned portraits)
but in just the 4 years drawing digitally I've made more money.


I learned when you sell an original for top dollar but then sell prints made from that original that you have effectively "ripped off" the person you sold the piece to.
How does that work with digital art?
Where did you learn this Susan?
it's not true, even after you've sold an original piece to someone YOU own the copyright on it, only YOU can make copies and sell them and they have no rights to do that or to ask you not to.
In fact as the creator you can sell them reproduction rights, or a licence to print.
I have friends who've made more money from selling the copyright retaining license on the picture than the picture itself lol ..but that may stop you reproducing it without their permission.
(if you were suggesting selling off 1 off prints as originals over and over again - I agree thats immoral)

The reason I am curious is I have considered trying my hand at digital art. I have made memes that include some artwork in them. Thinking of branching out.
I think thats a fantastic idea!
digital art's helped me evolve my watercolor painting skills to new levels
you wouldn't think it but many of the aspects, techniques and skills you learn on screen will totally pass over to painting in things like, color mixing, contrasts, compositions & depth of fields!
I choose to paint digitally now because my screen is 55 inches, thats an infinite amount of canvas's for FREE
saving me Ģ30 each time I pick up my tablet :smile:

abt2k15
04-01-2016, 05:37 AM
Wow folks, a lot of great information here. Thank you!

How does it affect interest/price when there is no "one of a kind" factor?

If I sell one of my works that's it, there are no more. Even if I do another rendition of the same subject, it will be different. I learned when you sell an original for top dollar but then sell prints made from that original that you have effectively "ripped off" the person you sold the piece to.
How does that work with digital art?

The reason I am curious is I have considered trying my hand at digital art. I have made memes that include some artwork in them. Thinking of branching out.

so... no one ever copied letīs say a dhali? :biggrin: there is not really a difference to traditional paintings except that overall since there is barely no material cost in digital it is somewhat harder to get people paying good prices for your work but to make up for that like you said its much easier to make copies from a digital source file.

if you want to have a poster 1,2meter width and 80cm high ( real metric measurement guise haha ) you will get a very bad result if you copy an image from the internet. so you need a high resolution in order to print larger than dinA4.

in digital you can also store copyright information and if you are very eager there is companies that do spider bots like google does but for picture information ( with or w/o watermark - its the pixel information ) so they will notice you and maybe also take actions for you for a fee of course. so in that regard its more secure than an original painting since there are master artists who can copy painter styles and itll be much harder to spot them since you need experts ( which can be wrong ) scientific analyses of material and such.

the only let down for digital is that you need to get used to a different hand/eye coordination and you might want to learn some painting software. but there is lots of tutorials
so its not hard to find information but yeah you dont really need to learn how to find a pen haha with digital you have to learn all tools.. its like you are a caveman painter entering a
free art store... but its rewarding! to me it feels just like traditional media w/o cost and i can mix "oil", "graphite", "acrylics" and whatever "medium" i please virtually w/o side effects like
acryl on oil f.e.

Susan Mulno
04-01-2016, 07:49 AM
You all are very helpful! And have given me a lot to think about.

What's funny is I ask about financial points and I am not really interested in making money off any of my art, I just wish to understand copyright etc.

So, if I may pick your brains just a little more....:glasses:

How tech savvy must I be to sell one of these? I see words like, "resolution", "reasonable size" etc...I get around a computer okay now but would not say I am fluent in "computer -ese". :biggrin:

Last(?) question, what is a good free art program to get my feet wet? I do not wish to spend on something I might ultimately abandon.

Thank you all for your time!

Susan Mulno
04-01-2016, 07:58 AM
Where did you learn this Susan?
it's not true, even after you've sold an original piece to someone YOU own the copyright on it, only YOU can make copies and sell them and they have no rights to do that or to ask you not to.
In fact as the creator you can sell them reproduction rights, or a licence to print.
I have friends who've made more money from selling the copyright retaining license on the picture than the picture itself lol ..but that may stop you reproducing it without their permission.
(if you were suggesting selling off 1 off prints as originals over and over again - I agree thats immoral)


I don't remember where I learned that, so I was misinformed, thank you.

dickhutchings
04-01-2016, 08:13 AM
Susan, resolution just means the number of pixels or color dots in an image. When I take a picture with my phone, the resolution is set in pixels to this.
33529 I change it to this for posting sometimes and this would probably be a higher resolution than you want if you were afraid of theft.
33537
So you might want to make it smaller so that when someone tries to blow it up, it looks horrible. If you click on the image below you'll see what I mean.
33545

Susan Mulno
04-01-2016, 08:16 AM
Thanks Dick! That's why Facebook pictures always look so choppy! :surprise: Good to know.

abt2k15
04-01-2016, 08:53 AM
you should buy a graphic tablet. preferably one from wacom... then imho the best free software for digital drawing/ painting is krita.

resolution determine the file size. you have a canvas size of 2100px wide and 600 pixels height at 100 dots ( pixels ) per inch means 21inch wide and 6 inch height.
if you have 2100px wide and 600 pixels height at 300 dpi however it means its 7inch wide and 2inch height but it can be very fine quality. itīll be sharper than the one
above at lower dpi but smaller.

thatīs kind of why its confusing sometimes. i dont know that much about print media and i think it only becomes important when you work at professional projects
with a whole team. just dont go below 75dpi when you open a new document- it should at least be HD size imho like over 2000pixels wide and 1000 pixel height and youll be fine for most needs when it comes to printing.

about the copyright thing etc. its complicated and here is the very short form : if you create something from the scratch its yours. if you draw something from a photo the act of the drawing and the way you did it is yours. also the result. not the motiv. that stuff is blurry and depends on the lawyer and who is who id say ^^

ultimately if you want to sue money you have to register it paying money every x years. otherwhise you can only tell them to stop stealing your work. you cannot get compensation for eventual losses. unless you have a huge fanbase or and are famous i would not bother with legal issues since it only becomes important when you get somewhat important i.e. famous, selling lots etc. at that point a lawyer is always better than a forum advice haha

Mel_Robertson
04-28-2016, 11:03 AM
Even if you are using paint like tools and everything feels like you're actually painting, it still is a picture, not a painting. A painting still requires paint.
Sorry to rain on your parade but that's my take on digital art.

dick I thought it was you who said this it took me over an hr to find your quote lool!

your claim changed my outlook on digital painting and for the last 2 weeks I've been racking my brain trying to work out if digital painting is really painting and today I concluded YES it is.
Digital painting IS painting because you can use a brush, with a color pallet, on a blank canvas.
examples I've debated to support physical VS digital painting are...

writing a Novel... if it's typed digitally then printed to a book it's still a Novel written by the author. (as are my paintings painted by moi)
Cybersex isn't actually sex but it's still sex.
digital music isn't produced with physical instruments but IS still music also, the machine is the instrument.

These reasons give me confidence once again to say "I painted this"
well done for making this point dick it really confused me :biggrin:

dickhutchings
04-28-2016, 12:16 PM
This may just be a generation thing. I agree that the skill set is exactly the same but it's still not a painting in my mind. It's digital art, period. You can't call digital music acoustic just because acoustic instruments were chosen from the drop down box. A person using the digital acoustic guitar may not have a clue how to play the guitar but knows his way around a keyboard. If I went to a concert billed as an acoustic set and there was someone with a computer playing midi files, I'd be very disappointed. Same with paintings.

Anyway, digital art/music has it's place in this new PC world of ours and I love and appreciate all your art. I just can't get myself to call it paintings.

abt2k15
04-28-2016, 12:54 PM
no dick - i cannot agree to this and you are very wrong imho.

wikipedia about painting :

Painting is the practice of applying paint, pigment, color or other medium to a surface (support base). The medium is commonly applied to the base with a brush, but other implements, such as knives, sponges, and airbrushes, can be used.

Painting is a mode of creative expression, and the forms are numerous. Drawing, gesture (as in gestural painting), composition, narration (as in narrative art), or abstraction (as in abstract art), among other aesthetic modes, may serve to manifest the expressive and conceptual intention of the practitioner.[2] Paintings can be naturalistic and representational (as in a still life or landscape painting), photographic, abstract, narrative, symbolistic (as in Symbolist art), emotive (as in Expressionism), or political in nature (as in Artivism).

...

In art, the term painting describes both the act and the result of the action.

you obviously dont value the medium "pixel" maybe because its only data. a digital painting can be a picture like theres pictures of paintings too but the original
is never just a picture. since you dont know how to create digital paintings it is kind of insulting how you diminish it because you dont value it. i could go on and on but i wont. you can have your opinion o/c but i want you to know that its a really blunt thing to say knowing how much effort and studies it takes to create these. itīs exactly the same
as traditional. just alot cheaper to produce since i dont have to buy mediums to make my chosen medium behave in a certain way and i dont have to frame it so people can look at it.

dickhutchings
04-28-2016, 01:07 PM
I don't think I diminished it at all. I fully understand the technical ability and artistic mind that it takes to create digital art, especially at meli's level. I'm pretty sure I said that but I think you may have gotten insulted as soon as I mentioned I don't consider it a painting. I do consider it beautiful art and I enjoy looking at it and appreciate the artists doing it. Please don't misunderstand that.

abt2k15
04-28-2016, 02:29 PM
yep its about the picture / painting. i knew you dont think you diminished it hehe but to me it felt that way :(
its kind of like im telling you your acrylic pictures are very beautiful but its not a painting for [insert opinions] reason ^^

edit : i just realized your point of view and i think the main difference is that you take "painting" literally and i can kind of
agree on that point since id too choose a different word for a digital painting since there is no german word for it id use illustration.
hence i guess you cannot comprehend my example about me telling your acrilyc work is not a painting... i dont think there is a
right or wrong here but i guess i simply misunderstood as i translated it different.

dickhutchings
04-28-2016, 03:42 PM
Yes, I'm being very literal. You got it. I'm glad we cleared that up. The last thing I would ever do is put down someones chosen medium. Plus, I do plan to go digital someday, I think there are a lot of advantages to it. Once I get bored with real paint!:biggrin::devil: I know I will. I change hobbies quite often.

kpnuts
04-28-2016, 04:03 PM
I agree with what's been said, ive no idea how easy/ difficult it would be but seems a reasonable idea, i think digital artists are definitly as talented if not more than a traditionsl artist and can see how they are probably the future of commercial art.I feel I need to clarify a point on tatt's (being an ex tattooist) tatt's go way back before 1929, no one actually knows when it started but Egyptian tombs have been opened and the occupant had tatt's can't remember what his name was but the frozen man they found in the ice 600 yrs old had tatt's, the Japanese use bamboo canes for tatt's and they have recorded tatt's of 400 yrs I never heard of the sticks heated on clay methods (not that I'm saying it's wrong, just another method I've not heard of) there are actually numerous methods you apply tatt's

abt2k15
04-29-2016, 02:34 AM
Yes, I'm being very literal. You got it. I'm glad we cleared that up. The last thing I would ever do is put down someones chosen medium. Plus, I do plan to go digital someday, I think there are a lot of advantages to it. Once I get bored with real paint!:biggrin::devil: I know I will. I change hobbies quite often.


hehe yeah. maybe to further encourage you to explore the digital fields :
i switch back and forth between traditional and digital ( more time spend on the latter tho )
and im always amazed how one medium helps me cope with the other.
i feel much more in control when it comes to real paint because of my digital adventures and vice versa.

dickhutchings
04-29-2016, 05:36 AM
I can relate to that. As a string instrument musician, I switch between guitar , banjo, fiddle and mandolin and what I learn on one always seem to come in to play on the next. It's been years since I played guitar seriously but I know if I picked it up again, I'll be a better player. Different tools give you different ideas. Look at bbbaldie and his watercolors. He used to have trouble with but just continuing as an artist has opened his eyes to it and his WC painting rival all his other work now. That's cool.

Mel_Robertson
04-29-2016, 09:13 AM
I'm glad everyones happy now! lol

dickhutchings
04-29-2016, 09:37 AM
RU happy with my definition meli? Digital Painting vs Painting?

Mel_Robertson
04-29-2016, 10:24 AM
dick I'm always happy I'm just happy to be here lol
I understand you don't see my paintings as paintings, but I will continue to call them paintings because, I used pigmented pixel pallet to paint them & as far as I can see thats within the definition of painting.
I hope your happy with my conclusion :)

dickhutchings
04-29-2016, 11:41 AM
I guess you and probably many others will continue to call it painting and I will call it digital painting. Nothing to get uptight about that's for sure.:biggrin:

SuddenLife
04-29-2016, 01:15 PM
You guys have no idea just how insanely refreshing this discussion is to read. So far the vast majority of discussions on this subject either quickly arrived at Ad Hominem Station or were full of people who got very angry at anyone not agreeing with them.
So yeah. Everyone here being so civilized about it is a breath of fresh air. Which is hella neat.
Though then again, that goes for every discussion on this forum.
Just wanted to share that.
-rolls away-

Susan Mulno
04-29-2016, 01:34 PM
SuddenLife, you are so right! We are a friendly community here and they have all proved it again! Well done all! :vs_clap:

kpnuts
04-29-2016, 01:34 PM
They do seem to be a very laid back friendly lot, I don't understand when people get all uppity over an opinion, we all have them, ( I think that's why me and my missus get on so well, we don't argue over something we`re never going to agree on, we just agree to differ) why flog a dead horse.

SuddenLife
04-29-2016, 01:59 PM
Honestly, I have no idea. My best guess is that some people kind of feel like their opinion is fact, or something. I've seen people go full rage mode on this subject, but I can't for the life of me get where they're coming from.

Mel_Robertson
04-29-2016, 02:28 PM
My best guess is that some people kind of feel like their opinion is fact, or something.

I agree thats the reason I stopped and questioned my own views on it for 2 weeks I didn't call one painting a painting and I too love the fact we can all accept others opinions for the greater good realizing it doesn't really matter on the scale of things 100 years from now everyone I know will be dead.
:vs_rightHere: << and what the hell is this guy doing lol

kpnuts
04-29-2016, 02:40 PM
My attitude is what's the point, you can't expect people to agree on everything . I was not a nice person in my early 20's. I went through school being bullied (I even attempted suicide as a result) someone was beating up a friend of mine, something snapped and three of them ended up in hospital and I was threatened with borstal (I had never been in trouble of any kind before, my teachers all gave me good reports)and I got off, but I would not stand by after that if someone was being bullied, I got a reputation and realised my so called friends didn't like me they were scared of me, so I actually didn't have any friends, from that point onwards I've gone out of my way to avoid confrontation. My point is arguing or violence does not solve anything and if you can't agree shouting (or worse) won't change anything if only people could leave egos behind and just say I don't agree with you and never will so let's talk about something else.

dickhutchings
04-29-2016, 02:42 PM
:vs_rightHere: << and what the hell is this guy doing lol
That's a good question. Seems to be wiping some crap off his face.